Speaking to Slingo, 2013 British & Irish Lions tourist and 72-cap Wales international Dan Lydiate gave his view on this year’s crop of tourists. Having been coached by Andy Farrell in Australia 12 years ago, Lydiate gave his insight on how things will be working behind the scenes in Australia.
Lydiate also offered his insights as a former teammate of Owen Farrell in 2013, with the former England captain’s late call-up raising eyebrows. He also spoke about how Jac Morgan’s character and skillset makes the Welshman stand out as his nation’s sole representative in the squad.
With Wales having ended their losing streak by beating Japan at the weekend, all eyes are on the future of interim coach, Matt Sherratt, and Lydiate also shared his vision for the future of the union.
What do you make of Owen Farrell’s inclusion?
It was inevitable. He was always going to be in the picture if he's still playing because he's got that credit in the bank.
There will be some boys that feel hard done by with his inclusion with a back three player going off and getting injured and leaving the tour. You'd be sort of scratching your head. It is a tough one. Obviously, he's got that trust with his father being the head coach. He's been there, done it and proven he can do it.
He's been injured these last couple of months but his record of professionalism and what he'd bring to the squad off-field would be massive but is he match fit? Is he a test player in the sense of having that test fitness? Those are probably different questions altogether.
He will certainly add to the environment, no doubt, but there will be players feeling hard done by.
Who might those players be with a 10 or a 12 coming in for a 15 or a winger?
It’s hard to know who will be on the depth charts as the next in line but when Elliott Daly picked up that knock on the weekend there will have been a few players checking their phone and checking their emails to see if they’d be getting the nod.
Obviously Andy Farrell feels he's got enough cover for those positions that he can bring Owen in to play as a 10 or 12 or whenever he sees him fitting in best in the squad but even the likes of Finn Russell, Marcus Smith and Fin Smith they’ll be scratching their heads thinking why is he bringing Owen in now?
A 10 coming back into the squad, there’ll be a few raised eyebrows from the players already on tour in those positions.
How much value can the squad draw from Owen Farrell’s experience now on his fourth Lions tour?
It's invaluable. You can't put a price on experience. Even just having him around the squad and going further into the management with Johnny Sexton there there's some quality operators and experience that the younger players, who haven't experienced a Lions tour, certainly lean on.
It'll be interesting come the test matches who'sactually going to get those jerseys but he’s not taking him out there not to be involved, is he. You'd hope at some stage he's going to put his hand up to see what he can offer as he’s just come back from Racing. He’s been injured for the last couple of games. He probably hasn’t had the best time out with Racing through injuries and picking up form but in terms of experience there’s probably no one better that you’d want to call in.
Because he's experienced so much test rugby it'll be like another game for him so it’s just when he's going to get another chance to play before the test matches to see if he can put his hand up.
It's hard to know if Andy thinks he’s going to warrant a place in the test team but it seems strange not to take him out there, not to feature. I guess time will tell. It's one of them, isn't it? Some big calls to be made.
Given the lack of time before the first test, how important is the relationship between Owen Farrell and his father and Sexton and Wigglesworth, and getting someone in who they know and can trust?
Like in any walk of life if you work with someone and you've got a good relationship with someone and know that they're going to be able to do a job or perform when called upon, then it's a go-to regardless of whether it's your son, if he's proven to do it time and time again.
I remember being on the Lions in 2013 with him and he was only young at the time, 21, and he was demanding that players train to the level that they need to play at. He was only a young kid at the time. I remember Adam Jones going into the England camp to watch them train and he's like literally calling boys out that the standard was not good enough, which is obviously a good thing. No one's batting an eyelid. That's fair because Faz said it.
From a standards point of view, he's the boss. That’s what you need. If the standard's not good enough in training, sometimes it's easier not to call it out but the best players will have those tough conversations, but then they've got to obviously walk the walk as well, haven’t you?
What have you made of the series so far?
The first test up against Argentina was always going to be tough with the limited time that the boys had together. To be fair to Argentina, they're a quality outfit. It's gone from there to getting out to Australia. They've been playing really well. There's always going to be critics, especially after that first test with certain players having sort of quieter games. But they've been given more chances as the weeks have gone on and really put their hands up.
I'm just thinking more from a Welsh point of view here with the likes of Jac Morgan. He came under a bit of fire after that first game against Argentina and then the next chance he had to wear that jersey he really put a marker down.
The closer it's getting to test matches now you'd think that they're not just going to just be giving everyone a chance. They're going to start seeing those combinations working together and trying to get a bit of continuity. So when the first test rolls around, the boys that are playing in positions have played together a bit and are performing and the best combinations are out there on the field.
Time is ticking along now in terms of putting your hand up for selection and you’d think it'll start coming apparentwho's going to be putting those jerseys on for the first test.
What makes a good Lions coach?
I think they've got to be first and foremost good people. I remember working with Fazza on the Lions when he was defence coach and for me he was cut from the same sort of cloth as Sean Edwards was from the same area. But how he articulates his words, there's a lot of sound bites of his meetings and how well he speaks and gets his point across, and I think from then he's obviously gone on to do so well with Ireland and everyone that I spoke to, because it’s been 12 years on, he's just gone to different levels.
It's tough to go from assistant coach, to defense or attack or what not, to a head coach and not everyone can do that. He's done that so well. Like any good coach, he gets players to play well for him. How he speaks and the relationship that he would have with them, if he's telling them to run through brick walls, then there's no question that that's what they'll do.
In the short space of time, he's got to build up the relationships with players that he's never worked with before. The staff around him are vital. The success that Gatland had, he put people in place that he knew were going to deliver for him. Even if he didn't have a conversation with a player, he knew how that player was by having other coaches in the room that would have a finger on the pulse if the boys were tired or if they needed to be pushed harder.
I know he's the figurehead but it's just who he's got round with Wigglesworth and people he's got who he trusts and that goes down the pecking order right to the players so if someone's not performing in training there's someone having that conversation, almost down the pecking order so it's feeding back up the chain.
No one's got a bad word to say about Faz and I think one thing I do like about him, he'll call a spade a spade so if something's good, he'll call it good but if it's something's not to the standard that he wants, he'll call it straight out as well.
After that first game he basically said, we weren't good enough today, and that's not what Lions has been about. I remember him saying, and there's a sound bite in a video clip of him saying, if I was your club coach or international coach, I'd say it was like a gallant effort in defense but you've got to go to another level if you're going to be wearing this jersey, because that's what Lions about.
Just like how he talks about representing the Lions and the history and what it takes to be a Lion and where you've to take yourself to wear that jersey and performing in that jersey is a completely different level. Just speaking to you now, talking about it, I'm getting goosepimples and goosebumps because I’m taking my memories back to how he spoke.
It's tough being on a Lions tour because there's a game every four days or five days and with the travel and everything but like I said at the start of this, you haven't got many chances to put your hand up if you're not playing well because there's lot of competition for places and quality players. If you're off your game will your chance come round again?
The Lions have been going well. It'll be interesting because obviously test matches are different but they look good in these warm-up games to be fair.
Who has impressed you the most on the tour so far?
It'd be interesting just to see the combinations. I'm always intrigued to see how the back row combination will play out. If you're having a six, that's a line out forward, or potentially have two more seven-ish players. Tom Curry can play seven but will he play six? But then they could be lacking in the line-up.
The train of thought behind what the back row combination is going to be always intrigues me. I dare say when it comes down to selection, Farrell will go with his gut and pick what he knows will perform.
For a Welshman, I’m obviously a massive supporter of the Lions but it's tough because with Tomos Williams it goes to show how cruel sport can be. I thought he was really putting his hand up now to be a test Lion and then he pulled his hamstring. All the Welsh hopes are hanging on Jac Morgan now which is tough for him because obviously when I went on the Lions tour there were so many Welshmen. Even though you build up relationships with players, you’ve really got to push yourself outside your comfort zone.
It's easy to fall back into talking to the Welsh boys all the time because that's what you're comfortable with but he'll come back from there and I know he's settling in well because of how well he's playing. You'll know if the players are not happy off field and the way everything is because they definitely won't be playing well on the field, especially at that level.
You can see he's fully immersed in the Lions culture and he must be building up some really goodrelationships but it'd be interesting how it's all going to pan out with selection because I don't know how they're going to select the test team.
Is Jac Morgan playing himself into the 7 shirt with Tadhg Beirne at 6 and Jack Conan at 8?
Pollock played six in this last test game, I guess he is a bolter for the bench because he brings that energy. He is a game changer or will they go with the sort of tried and tested?
Ben Earl needed a big game to really force his hand up for selection in that 8 jersey. Chessum can play at six as well. I don't know, it's tough, isn't it? But it's all about getting the blend right. Any sort of combination that works well will always outplay the opposition if they're just individuals. The better the blend in your centre partnerships, your nine and tens, your back row, your locks, even if you're coming up against individually betterthey'll always outperform individuals as a combined unit.
What makes Jac Morgan such a stand out player and person?
To be a top class player you need to have something that you can hang your hat on. You're a ball carrier or a good defender or jackal threat or whatever it is. The way you read the game.
I think he's good on both sides of the ball. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's a world class line-up operator, just for his stature, but how he is in defense, his work rate, how he reads the game and how explosive he is as a ball carrier, and then just thinking back to the World Cup as a young leader playing in the first game against Fiji in the World Cup, hitting crossfield kicks. He's not a boastful guy, he's really humble, but to back his skill set in such a critical game, this guy's just at a different level.
He’s somewhat similar to Justin Tipuric, just not the same build, who’svery good in the wide channels, his passing game and for me he’sa very good defensive player with his reads and jackals and stuff like that. Jack's still a young man but he's got both sides of his game that if they're playing against teams and it's all out of tack, he's got that. If they're back against the walls and under the pump and need someone to get a turnover or make a big shot he's got that side in his game. Andy Farrell said he can play wherever he wants if he keeps playing like that.
One thing about him, if he has a good game, he won't let it go to his head and I was just so pleased for him after that first game, not that he had a bad game or anything by his standards, I think in the next game you had like 21 tackles, so many meters over gain line a try, three turnovers. I'm more biased towards Jack than the other back rowers but even as an unbiased view, I think he's still really putting his hand up just in how he's conducting himself and how he's playing.
Plus the fact of how good it would be to have him in that test side because he merits it through his performances over the last few years, but like I was saying with like Thomas, rugby doesn't always work out like that through injuries, I'm hoping he’ll carry on and get a big performance this week and hopefully go from a penciled name in the test site to a pen name.
Pollock is a bit of a Marmite player. He talks the talk but he does walk the walk. What do you make of him?
It's one of those that when you see a person who is almost flamboyant in talking the talk but when you see him on the the field, you're like, fair play. This kid can play and if he backs it up, fair play to him.
The only thing that he's going to have in his rugby career, obviously, if he carries on playing like that and he's going to get criticism so if he has a quiet game, which everyone does, no one's going to be 10 out of 10, people are just going to be hounding him. I guess he's just going to have to deal with that.
I take my hat off to the kid because he is a very special player and the stuff he can do in attack,he's certainly a game changer. Is he someone that you can bring off the bench with 20 minutes to go with a lot of energy? Well, he'sdefinitely that.
He can score tries. He brings energy. He certainly walks a walk. I wish I had a bit more confidence at 21 or 20 years old like he does but I don't think I was at that level in terms of what he's performing, to be fair to him, so good on him.
How important is this series to Australia for reestablishing Rugby Union down there?
Take it back two years when we were in the World Cup and I watched Wales play against Australia and I thought the Lions were going to be a whitewash but obviously since Joe Schmidt's been involved they are a different animal altogether. It’s going to be a competitive series which from a neutral point of view, that's what you want, isn’t it? You don't want to see a one-sided affair because it's no good for anyone.
For Rugby Australia, it’s so important for them to obviously try and win the series but also establish Rugby Union as a predominant sport in Australia because it'sprobably been shadowed by the other sports that takethe majority of the plaudits out there and audiences.
It's massive for the Australian Rugby Union for the revenue and all the support and fans going over to really boost their income. For us, it's like once every four years but for them it's every 12 years. Hopefullyit'll give them a leg up that they need but in terms of where they’ve come from and in a short space of time, to bomb out the last World Cup, they're going from strength to strength.
You take your hat off to the coaching team and they'll be like raring to go ready to play the Lions as well. I'm looking forward to the test matches.
How special is it to be part of a Lions tour?
I think when we were there [in 2013] it was 16 years since the Lions last won? The chat then was about whether it was going to carry on and whatnot. For us, to be part of that Lions tour and winning the series, it was so special.
When I see the adverts for the Lions now and watching the squad announcement, I get really nervous because I wasn't expecting to be called up or anything so it just takes me back to my feelings of when I was selected, how the players must have felt and the ones that were probably not selected and probably how they felt. It's so special.
When you're on that roller coaster of being on a Lions tour given how busy it is packing your bags, moving to the next game, training well, all the commercial side of it with different players going out every night, doing school visits and sponsorships, meals and everything like that. You probably don't get a chance to take a breath while you're there. In the back of your head, you're just like thinking it's a once in a lifetime opportunity and you're just trying to almost fulfill your rugby dream. It's only sort of after coming away from the tour and you see it,it's just a surreal moment.
Later on, the Lions DVD came out, we all got sent a DVD and then you’re watching that with a cup of tea six months later one night and it was like, Jesus, that was so special. I can't believe I was part of that. Even now when I'm watching the Lions and watching the adverts and I'm thinking, well, I'm a British lion. It doesn't seem like it but 12 years ago it’salmost like a lifetime ago. How special is that I'm Lions cap number 784. I was part of a test winning series and I got three test caps. Just amazing really.
That's why I take my hat off to Jack Morgan because there were so many of us Welshies on that [2013] tour because of the previous two years of performances by the Welsh team, which obviously I think was justified. To play for my country and then get to play with the Lions with them boys and obviously with Tipuric as well but it’s also the relationships you make with the other boys.
I still have the odd message with Sean O'Brien. Me and him played six and seven in the last test with Toby. It's so special. Geoff Parling, who was actually on the tour, he's the forwards coach for Australia. Still having the odd text message off Geoff. I know he signed for Leicester, so I messaged him when he got the Leicester job and just said, I'll be hopefully popping up and see how you operate and he's like, yeah, no worries mate. You just build up these relationships and it’s not that you speak all the time but even if it's a text once a year to say hello mate, how's it going, good to see you.
It’s the same in pre-season, Dragons played Hartpury in a pre-season game. Billy Tweltrees was there as one of the coaches. I was like what's happening, Billy? Like straight away, giving him a hug. I hadn't seen him for 10 years.
How key will the Irish connection be to the Lions in the tests given Andy Farrell’s background?
Joe McCarthy, the first chance he had, got man of the match. He's doing all the right things. Fazz is going to pick people he trusts. If there's 50 calls on players that he's unsure of, he's going to go with the ones that he knows are going to perform for him, even if they're sort of level pegging, and that's the way it's always been, isn't it? I definitely say that would be the case.
McCarthy, he's a workhorse, isn't he? A big strong ball carrier. I really like him. I played against him at the start of this year or last year and I thought he's going to go all the way. The amount of work he gets through, big powerful guy, strong in defence. He's just a big heavy guy who can obviously shift a lot.
He’sprobably not as good in the air as an Itoje but he's a heavier set player, so he's never gonna be, but he's powerful. I'm not saying he's a terrible lineup forward but he's some player.
What’s the long-term solution for the coach of Wales?
I think it's a million dollar question. Everyone I spoke to doesn't know one like none the wiser. They obviously don't want to rush into making a decision of who it's going to be and making sure it's the right person and obviously having the right staff around them because it's not just the head coach. You've got to have the right coaches around them to develop a quality side and give them time to develop as a World Cup cycle.
I really like Jockey and that coaching team all work really hard. Danny Wilson, the forwards coach down at Harlequins and you've got Bomb as the scrum coach. Leigh Halfpenny's coming in as the kicking coach. They’re all guys that I've worked with so for me they've all got credit in the bank.
Who knows where the powers to be within the WRU who they are actually going to hang their hat on and be the person that's gonna take us back to sort of winning ways. There's a lot of young talent coming through that needs nurturing so it'sgonna take time. It's not like an overnight fix. We are seeing a generation where everyone's retiring now or has retired over the last two years who we just lost so it takes time to get back to that. The number of quality players that have all bowed out gracefully. The next crop of players definitely has shining lights in there with Jack Morgan, Thomas William, Dewi Lake. In the next few years, I can’t see them not coming back strong. It’s just the time that we’re in at the minute, it’s tough times.
The public are feeling it. The WRU are definitely feeling it at the minute. But we were probably spoiled really with how much success we had from a small nation punching well above our weight in the last however many years.
The URC season is coming up. What do you make of the South Africans involved given how they shift the dynamic?
It's tough playing against the South African teams from a travelling point of view but it's good from a standards point of view because it's tough and that makes the league a lot tougher.
Their squad sizes are a lot bigger than what we've got too. You go down to South Africa sometimes and half your team's not available for selection because of the constraints of how financially tight things are in Welsh rugby.
But at the same time, as a young player coming through, going down and playing the Bulls in Pretoria, what a life experience that is. We were with the Dragons last year and we had a couple of injuries and they were calling in a couple of semi-professional players to go and play against the Bulls. It's especially tough going then. From a league point of view, it certainly strengthens our league, but it is tough travelling to get down there and get back ready for the next week.
I played in South Africa a few times now and it's a hell of a place to play because of the support. More for the national team because when you go to these massive stadiums they don't seem to fill it like when you play the national side but they've got so many teams that they're running with the Currie Cup and everything like that. It's just unbelievable how they just keep turning these players out, really.
Finally, back to the Lions tour of 2013, what was it like in the camp when Warren Gatland didn’t even name Brian O’Driscoll on the bench for the last test?
Yeah, it was a bit of a shock to be honest. Foxy got a hell of a lot of flak for it but it was more down to Jamie coming back than on Foxy. Gatz made the call and it paid off but I remember after the next day I was walking past him and I can't remember who I was with and I could see that Gatz was quite nervy about everything and basically sayinghe's getting a lot of shit over this selection.
I was like, don't worry about it. We got this. It's in the bag sort of thing, the game coming up. He laughed it off but he obviously felt under pressure from the Irish side and was getting a hell of a lot of flak. It’s not like Brian underperformed on that tour or anything but Gatz made the big calls that needed to be made and he went with it. It all paid off. I dare say Brian still feels that he should have been selected in that game, and I dare say if he'd have played he wouldn't have underperformed, but Gatz went with the team that he thought would get the job done and it got the job done so it all worked out.
